Motorcycle engine?

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Postby Red-85-Z51 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:21 pm

MEMPHIS wrote:i dont know how to convert from cc to hp, but i dont think that the engine you were talking of using could put out 50hp???

and no you wouldnt win. First off half way down the track you would shake the kart into little peices cause a 50hp engine on the back is going to do that at high rev.

What a clueless repsonse, on 2 counts. 1st, I could control my engine speed by my gears, so It wouldnt have to rev realy high. 2nd, 1 and 2 cylinder ATV and Cycle engines are balanced and most run a full circle crank, and some even have a syncro balancer...the engine speed has no effect on vibrations. You show your lack on knowledge on this subject when you say things like this.

second you wouldnt because you are going to be changing gears every 5 seconds until you reach a gear your power house of an an is going to rev out.

Ok smart guy...lets say my engine has a peak torque of 75ft/lbs and occurs at 5000 rpms.

Start in 1st gear, drop the clutch and accelerate to 6000, shift to 2nd, rpms drop to 3800, rev to 6000, shift to 3rd, pull past 6500, shift to 4th, and rpms drop to 3500, pull up to peak torque and hold it there.

I can keep my engine at peak torque through the gears...I can control how well it pulsl through the next gear by how far I take it through the current gear.

Lets say your engine makes 30 ft/lbs or tq @ 4400 rpms.

You start at idle...hit the gas and hold it..the TC engages at 3500 and the engine bogs when it hits..it quickly revs up and past the peak TQ level and you hold it steady at the 6000 rpm redline...thats it, it's as fast as you can go..no more engine speed and you are already in overdrive as far as the TC in concerned.

Im shifting gears, taking advantage of my power curve, finding more speed with higher gears, and the power isnt dropping off.

You go through your power band one time, and rev past it...and thats it.


in my case i have infinite ratio of gears. and even though you have more power. i would guess i have more power per lb of kart. therefore i would still kick your butt.

Like I said..not infinite, not infinitely variable. Like in Jr. dragsters, they use a snowmobile TC because those little 5hp briggs are cranking out over 50hp, and rev past 10,000 revs. The floor it, and the TC hits and goes into overdrive quickly, and they let the tire growth and engine redline make the speed. It's not like it's revving to the redline and the TC is adjusting as they go down the track...

Power to weight...eh, 200lbs kart, 85lbs engine, wheels/tires, fuel, etc..350lbs

50hp divided by 350 lbs = 7lb per hp




But in a totally different veiw i like this idea. I have always wanted a kart with a motorcycle engine on the back of it.

Didnt you say a while back you'd already done this a few times and it didnt work?

so i have come up with this little idea.
I called don jackson at comet, and he seems to think that the 90 TAV could handle the power for a 300cc engine. Like i said before i dont know how to convert cc to hp. so 50 hp maybe to much??
but if this unit could handle the power. it would adjust to any rpm, or torque, or hp you add to it.
now in the end you may eat 5 or so hp.... but i think the infinite ratio would kick some butt on track or off road.

So what do you think all high and mighty red?


CC's dont convert to Horsepower genious...

CC's are Cubic Centimeters...it's a measure of engine displacement.

12.5 ci = 206cc's

20ci = 305cc's

So you would have the same displacement as an 8hp Briggs OHV...

But we all know that a motorcycle desgined engine makes power better by leaps and bounds that a utility engine. Id wager that 30-50hp wouldnt be unheard of from a performance 300cc engine. I mean a 150howhit makes like 9hp, and it's very inefficient. a 300 SYM engine makes about 25, and it's also not built with power in mind. So I feel confident in my 30-50hp range...4 or 2 cycle.

And the infinte speeds of a TC are misleading. you get VARIABLE ratios, until you get to the max travel of the driver pulley.

Now...up to your reply to pick it apart...c ya!
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Postby smgs92 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:23 pm

my 125cc racing dirtbike engine produces 22hp
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Postby speed shop » Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:25 pm

My money is on the 5 speed kart.
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Postby MEMPHIS » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:45 pm

yeah i didnt know about the cc and hp thingi. I dont mess with cc that much.

So you have given me ALL this info, lets put the pedal to the metal. We need someone on the forum to try it out and lets us know what happens.

But i have one thing that you miss understood.
a TAV that can handle the power of an engine. DOES HAVE INFINITE TORQUE!!!!
my 40 TAV doesnt engage all the way.

if this 90 TAV can handle the power. I would bet alot on that it beats your 5 speed idea

OH and speed shop, let me and red talk about this. Cause a TAV is NOT single speed, that doesnt even make sense.
Speed is a necessity!!!!!
Bet u 10 bucks, i can beat u across the line.
If u go any slower, my grandma is going to past u for the 2nd time!!
If u dont go fast enough, i WILL run over u!!
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Postby speed shop » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:56 pm

yea well it is in my book
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Postby Red-85-Z51 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:26 pm

MEMPHIS wrote:yeah i didnt know about the cc and hp thingi. I dont mess with cc that much.

So you have given me ALL this info, lets put the pedal to the metal. We need someone on the forum to try it out and lets us know what happens.

But i have one thing that you miss understood.
a TAV that can handle the power of an engine. DOES HAVE INFINITE TORQUE!!!!
my 40 TAV doesnt engage all the way.

If your Sereis 40 TAV doesnt engage all the way, you have a belt problem, because it isnt TORQUE that controls the engagement of the TC, it is engine speed and therrfore ground speed. The faster the engine goes, the {flaxulation} out it pushes the sliding sheave on the driver, and thusly the {flaxulation} the belt moves IN on the driven unit. Your TC cannot have infinite torque, that doesnt even make any sense. Torque converter is a deceptive term, the more proper name is Continually Variable Transmission or CVT for short. The ratio can change from a lower ot a higher ratio with engine and ground speed.



if this 90 TAV can handle the power. I would bet alot on that it beats your 5 speed idea

OH and speed shop, let me and red talk about this. Cause a TAV is NOT single speed, that doesnt even make sense.


A TAV is single speed, your engine revs from idle to wide open, and by that time the CVT has done all the moving and adjustments it can. You find your top speed, and thats IT, you cant go any faster. You wont get any more top speed, beyond a few MPH from being assymetrical, with a CVT over a drum clutch. The only purpose of the CVT is to get more acceleration, but you are still limited by your final drive gear. When the CVT is done moving, it is approx. 1:1, engine to driven. Same as if you had a sprocket on the crank and a chain down to the axel sprocket. Only advantage to a CVT is you underdrive the final drive until you get to 1:1.

SO you would have to run a much smaller axel gear to gain top speed, and in doing so, you would kill acceleration, even with the CVT.

Whereas with a Gearbox, I can go from a low low 1st gear, to a high Overdrive top gear, about 0.80:1. And with my much higher Horsepower, I can pull the higher gear ratios hard, same as I can in the lower gears.

Speed Shop, feel free to throw your 2 cents in here, same for everybody on the forum. Memphis can barely handle 1 person feeding him common sense and logic..he feels threatened when he has 2 people doing it.
Last edited by Red-85-Z51 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby schatten » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:32 pm

Memphis in this video the takes off easy in the beginning with no tire spin. That shows that you can take off and not just set there spinning your tires, and that is with a 175hp motor. If he can start off with out tire spin with that much power then you can sure as heck do it with a 125 or 250cc. If you continue to watch the video the guy revs the motor up, pops the clutch and guns it, that is when he smokes the tires down to nothing.



[web]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR9Qt6FFSu8&feature=related[/web]
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Postby smgs92 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:49 pm

MEMPHIS wrote:yeah i didnt know about the cc and hp thingi. I dont mess with cc that much.

So you have given me ALL this info, lets put the pedal to the metal. We need someone on the forum to try it out and lets us know what happens.

But i have one thing that you miss understood.
a TAV that can handle the power of an engine. DOES HAVE INFINITE TORQUE!!!!
my 40 TAV doesnt engage all the way.

if this 90 TAV can handle the power. I would bet alot on that it beats your 5 speed idea

OH and speed shop, let me and red talk about this. Cause a TAV is NOT single speed, that doesnt even make sense.

ill try it if i can get my dirtbike engine to run
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Postby MEMPHIS » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:42 pm

why my TAV does engage is because i have it set to only let me go 50 mph. Thats fast enough for me off road.

HEY schatten!!! i aint seen you round here in a while!! sorry i cant get video on dail-up. :'( but i beleive ya anyway.

I guess i am wrong. I didnt have 5 speeds (only 3), and i had an older 1000 cc engine, so i guess i wasnt doing something right.

I still think that red is not understanding a TAV completely.... cause if you reach your top gear and your high reved, then you are only single speed too then.
that would make every thing single speed.
and that make to sense
TAVs are not only meant for torque. if they were jr. dragsters wouldnt use them.
Speed is a necessity!!!!!
Bet u 10 bucks, i can beat u across the line.
If u go any slower, my grandma is going to past u for the 2nd time!!
If u dont go fast enough, i WILL run over u!!
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Postby Red-85-Z51 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:04 pm

MEMPHIS wrote:why my TAV does engage is because i have it set to only let me go 50 mph. Thats fast enough for me off road.

HEY schatten!!! i aint seen you round here in a while!! sorry i cant get video on dail-up. :'( but i beleive ya anyway.

I guess i am wrong. I didnt have 5 speeds (only 3), and i had an older 1000 cc engine, so i guess i wasnt doing something right.

I still think that red is not understanding a TAV completely.... cause if you reach your top gear and your high reved, then you are only single speed too then.

1st gear: 4.2:!:1
2nd gear: 3.1:1
3rd gear: 2.1:1
4th gear: 1.0:1
5th gear: 0.75:1

An example of some gear ratios, Notice the super low 1st gear, the 1:1 4th, and the over drive 5th gear.

This gives me the ability to optimize all my gears as I come to them, it gives me full control of the vehicle. I get to overdrive the engine in 5th too...



that would make every thing single speed.
and that make to sense
TAVs are not only meant for torque. if they were jr. dragsters wouldnt use them.


What the heck does "TAVS ARE NOT ONLY MEANT FOR TORQUE" mean? Jr. Dragsters arent using TAVS buddy...they are using heavily modified Snow Mobile CVT's..

In an automatic trans car, you basically get into 1:1 (usually 3rd gear) around 35-40mph, and just hold the pedal down from there to get speed, then around 100mph, it shifts into OD.

With a stick shift, you can hold it in 1st longer so that you start 2nd closer to peak torque, You can hold it in 2nd longer so you start 3rd at a higher speed, and closer to peak torque. Ride 3rd to the redline and get into 4th (usually 1:1) at about 85mph, and it's only a short ride to 5th for the 1st overdrive.

Automatics are not controllable. Ideally on a CVT kart, you would rev to the peak tq speed, and engage in LOW, and hold it until the engine could recover from engaging, and slowly move the driven over as ground speed increases (manually) until you are fully engaged..

However as you well know, they dont work that way...the CVT engages, and starts moving over immediatly...
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Postby schatten » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:50 pm

MEMPHIS wrote:why my TAV does engage is because i have it set to only let me go 50 mph. Thats fast enough for me off road.

HEY schatten!!! i aint seen you round here in a while!! sorry i cant get video on dail-up. :'( but i beleive ya anyway.

I guess i am wrong. I didnt have 5 speeds (only 3), and i had an older 1000 cc engine, so i guess i wasnt doing something right.

I still think that red is not understanding a TAV completely.... cause if you reach your top gear and your high reved, then you are only single speed too then.
that would make every thing single speed.
and that make to sense
TAVs are not only meant for torque. if they were jr. dragsters wouldnt use them.



hey

I do think you are wrong when you say tavs arent ment for tq, but I dont want to get into the argument.
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Postby MEMPHIS » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:33 pm

hahahahahaha!!!!!
you make me laugh!!!

I have been to SO MANY strips!!
and they ARE running comet 40 TAVs...... best thing out there...
and let me ask you this, why do you think they are???? maybe because they KNOW that they work better???

and schatten i wasnt saying they dont have torque..... i was saying that they also have SPEED!!! and lots of it!!!
;)
Speed is a necessity!!!!!
Bet u 10 bucks, i can beat u across the line.
If u go any slower, my grandma is going to past u for the 2nd time!!
If u dont go fast enough, i WILL run over u!!
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Postby Red-85-Z51 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:05 pm

MEMPHIS wrote:hahahahahaha!!!!!
you make me laugh!!!

I have been to SO MANY strips!!
and they ARE running comet 40 TAVs...... best thing out there...
and let me ask you this, why do you think they are???? maybe because they KNOW that they work better???

and schatten i wasnt saying they dont have torque..... i was saying that they also have SPEED!!! and lots of it!!!
;)


You may have been to strips, but Ive messed with Jr. dragsters. Al lthe way from Mod briggs up to Full on Rhino Block and Blockzilla 3's... The slower classes run the Comet 340.

Some run these "hybrid" CVT's...they remind me of a comet, but heavier...

[web]http://www.hrdracing.com/product_1.html[/web]

THE REST...run a Polar clutch.

My good friend Louie Brake's oldest son still holds the SE NHRA JR. Drag record for fastest run on a Stock Comet CVT. They then moved to the POLAR clutches when everyone else did, and saw the light! He also did a ton of experimental work for ARC racing i ntheir infancy for the first 5hp briggs Billet rod, and Billet flywheel, also they hammered out the first billet flywheel with adjustable hub.

[web]http://www.polarmotorsport.com/racers/index.html[/web]
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Postby speed shop » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:31 pm

Wow I cant belive he still thinks a single speed kart would beat a 5 speed kart....
I guess thats why our economy is crashing.....thanks to not so smart people.
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Postby gokarter45 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:29 am

haha thats funny.
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Postby speed shop » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:10 am

yea makes me laugh
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Postby MEMPHIS » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:16 am

all we can do is try it.
i havent messed with a 5 speed on a kart before, only a 3 speed.
i know one thing, a TAV is a heck of alot cheeper!!!
so thats probably why i have only used a TAV and a cheep 3 gear set-up.

It makes sense to me that a 5 speed could bet a TAV, but i need some data to back it up.
Speed is a necessity!!!!!
Bet u 10 bucks, i can beat u across the line.
If u go any slower, my grandma is going to past u for the 2nd time!!
If u dont go fast enough, i WILL run over u!!
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Postby speed shop » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:55 am

well here is a 5 speed racing kart.
[web]http://youtube.com/watch?v=HPsFF1GGpOQ[/web]
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Postby gokarter45 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:00 pm

those karts are pretty sweet and FAST i want one.
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Postby speed shop » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:01 pm

yea dude
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